How Entrepreneurs Can Stop Living in Survival Mode with Jenna Holloway

INTRO:

Hey hey, Kathryn here! I’m so glad you’re tuning in. If you’re new to the show, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here. If you’ve been around for a bit, you know I’m all about keeping it real with you. Showing you all the sides of entrepreneurship (& life). I mean it’s all connected, right? 

I shared one of my favorite Brene Brown quotes,  if you’re not in the arena getting your ass-kicked, I don’t want your feedback. Well, I want you to see me as your friend in the arena equally getting my ass-kicked but inspiring you to keep going because I get it. I’m living it too.

And that the perspectives I share on the show are real life, in the arena types of perspectives, like the one I’m going to share with you today.

But before I do, I want to share an exciting opportunity with you. Last week I hosted a private training showing coaches & consultants how I launched & scaled one of my businesses to close to a million in sales without using outbound engagement tactics or lead generation.

Like cold DMing, engaging on other people’s posts hoping they pay attention, or trying to prospect potential clients in FB groups. 

It was a total smash, and everyone loved it. So did everyone who attended & caught the replay. Now I’m looking for a small group of women who want to attract 1 to 3 NEW clients weekly (or fill their group programs) in the next 60 days. 

If that sounds like, head on over to the link in the show notes and apply now, or visit creativelyowned.com/apply

Now let’s dive into the good stuff for today. We have a special guest on the show. Jenna Holloway. Jenna is here to talk about one of my favorite topics and that is how to stop living in survival mode. I know I spent many years riding the train and it isn’t fun. 

What I love about what Jenna does is she uses solution-focused hypnotherapy and coaching to get professionals and entrepreneurs to stop living life in survival mode and move on from the overthinking, self-doubt, and procrastination that stops them from showing up with their best energy to move forward fast in their business or careers.

So without further adieu let’s welcome Jenna to the show.

00:00 Kathryn

hey, hey, I am super stoked to have Jenna on the show today to talk about how to stop living in survival mode. Without further ado, I'm just going to turn it right over to you, Jenna, so that you can share with our listeners who you are what you do who you serve.

00:20 Jenna

Yeah, sure. Hi, Kathryn. And so I am a solution-focused hypnotherapist, and I serve anybody that works with high pressure. So any all of my clients, they have the same sort of problems in their life, regardless of whether they are an entrepreneur or in high-pressure roles. And those key problems that they come with are things like overthinking, procrastinating, having a busy mind, especially when they're trying to sleep at night, feeling overwhelmed with life in general, let alone the business and those kinds of things. So yeah, my work revolves around teaching about how the brain works, and using hypnotherapy to reprogram the subconscious mind.

01:13 Kathryn 

So cool. So cool. And I want to I mean, there's so much there that I want to dive into, because I think, you know, again, and prior to us pressing record on this, I was sharing with you like I just hear so many people, entrepreneurs are mostly who I work with. But I also worked in high pressure corporate career prior to this, and I just hear so much lately, right now, lots of burnout, lots of entrepreneurs living in that survival mode. Can you describe, I guess what I know, you kind of touched on like, going to sleep at night and having the running thoughts and stuff. But can we dive a little bit more into what a survival mode looks like in a day to day for somebody, if they don't even know that they're living in survival mode, they just think this is the norm.

01:55 Jenna

Yeah, of course. So there's so much to unpack here. So we it could be poor concentration levels, brain fog, and not having much patience, feeling like little things overwhelm you, not feeling very resilient. feeling like you don't have the self-belief needed to do the things that you need to do in your business to get it to where you want to be. procrastinating and, or doing the little easy tasks and not the needle movers spending too long on something like perfectionist type tendencies. Hiding, like if your business revolves around showing up online and be invisible, that's a huge part of it. Because particularly, I've got a client in mind at the moment. She's a, she's a coach, and she's an amazing coach, she's so confident in what she's doing when she's got a client in front of her, but has a lot of subconscious work to do to help her to show up and talk confidently about her skills, so that she can attract the clients in because a lot of entrepreneurs, they are so passionate about what they need to do, but not skilled in getting that across to their ideal clients. So they struggle. And particularly, like from my own personal background, I went into hypnotherapy training, completely naive to the, to the what it's going to take to get a business off the ground and actually to, to be able to sell services and attract clients, all of that I was so naive to. And luckily, like I've got the self-belief and the willingness to learn and all the rest of it. So it's been amazing for me. But yeah, it's it holds a lot of people back from, you know, from the work that I've seen with clients.

03:56 Kathryn

Yeah, love that. And I mean, so many of the things that you said resonate with me because I know in my early days of entrepreneurship and probably incorporate to that I was operating in that state and I know a lot of people you know that like brain fog or, you know, focusing on like the easy tasks are easily overwhelmed with like all the things we have to do. I'd love to dive into the visibility piece of it because it's one of the things that I help my clients with when it comes to like messaging and showing up right online. What what are some of the subconscious blocks that come with being seen or that visibility?

04:33 Jenna

Yep, okay, so again, it's a big one but the subconscious mind stores and records everything you've ever experienced, even witnessed or heard. And this is particularly key, the things in your childhood because up to around the age of eight, you are recording and programming everything and you don't have the mental maturity to analyze The experiences and the things that you hear. And they affect you later on in life, they literally make up the belief that you have about yourself. So let's take an example then, if you're, it could be a parent or a teacher, or best friend says something that's hurtful to you as a child, probably because their stress bucket is full themselves. You take that to heart. And you suddenly believe that that thing, whatever statement that is, like, You're so embarrassing, or you're so needy, or anything like that, you take that to heart, you believe that. And that affects the way you show up as an adult, not necessarily just in your business, but in your personal life and your relationships, too. I can't remember what the original question was, Oh, yes. So how does that affect you, and your visibility, so the things that you believe about yourself, which sometimes you don't even know, some of this stuff is subconscious beliefs as well. But when we become an entrepreneur, or we suddenly get faced with the person we are like, you can have what you think of as minor problems or minor things that hold you back in life, and then you become an entrepreneur, and suddenly, while they're making a big appearance, because they're stalking you showing up and be invisible, for example. So those things really come to the forefront when you're trying to run a business. And those can be any type of belief about yourself, like, Oh, I'm afraid of other people judging me or I look silly on camera, or I am not trained enough in what I'm doing. My experiences and isn't valuable enough. I don't like my accent, it literally could be 1,000,001 things. And yeah, the effect of our beliefs is huge in because our thoughts and our beliefs come from the subconscious mind. Yeah, we need to change the subconscious programming in order to have better thoughts and feelings which help us show up and take more decisive, bold action in our business. Does that make sense?

07:09 Kathryn

Yeah, and I love the examples because I mean, I just did a post yesterday about, like, Would you show up differently if you had zero people watching? 510? Whatever. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And most of us majority of us, all of us pretty much would show up differently, depending on who's watching, and all of that. And so I love the visibility topic, because I, you know, yeah, I mean, I've experienced I know, lots of entrepreneurs that have experienced, especially getting into the online space, right, where there's like, way more eyeballs on you, when I opened brick and mortar there wasn't like, I mean, there was eyeballs on us. But I feel like you get into the online space. It's like this abyss, it's like so many people, and Eyes, eyes on you.

07:51 Jenna

Yeah, it's the self-belief piece that's massive, it's so, so important. You could know all of the strategy as a business owner. But if you don't believe in yourself, you're going nowhere, because you're not going to show up in the way that you need to and you might be showing up. But the nonverbal communication and the energy with which you're showing up is not right to attract your ideal clients. So you're either not showing up enough and hiding, or you're showing up with the wrong energy, and 93% of communication is nonverbal. So whether this is an in a in an igtv Live, or whether this is on a sales call, the other the audience is going to feel that energy on a subconscious level and just get a feeling a subconscious feeling from you, that your energy is not in the right place. So it doesn't feel good. Therefore, so this can be as simple as if you think that sales is, what's the word you don't want to sell because it feels salesy or achy Yeah, then you're going to show up with a different energy than if you think what I have to offer is amazing. I need to communicate this valuable service of mine to serve the world, then you just show up with a different energy, but there's the thing that needs to change is the belief, the belief on the inside about you and mostly always about yourself being good enough or worthy?

09:17 Kathryn

Yeah, so it's so powerful, right? And the whole subconscious is like and I mean, I talk a lot about energy too, when it comes to messaging, right? Because I'm just like, you know, you can write the best copy in the world and you can show up and do the live but if your energy isn't in alignment, and you're not fully believing what you're even selling Yeah, it's just it's gonna rub people the wrong way. And they might not even know it like they don't know why. It's like off for them, but they just don't feel drawn, drawn to it. Yeah, so I'm back to sort of like this, like survival mode piece. Like, where does that like, Where does the procrastination and the like, obsessively doing the tiny tasks that don't move the needle like where does that all come from?

10:03 Jenna

Alright, such a good question. And so your brain is designed for survival and survival only. Okay, so we've got the same brain now as we had when we were cavemen and women. And so when you are doing things that are easy, safe, your brain is okay with that. But if you want to do something that's a little bit out of your comfort zone, your primitive your emotional, caveman, primitive brain is gonna say to you don't do that, that is risky, because it's different. And we all know that when we step outside of our comfort zone, we grow in confidence. But your primitive brain, when you're in survival, by the way, you're always operating from your primitive brain, and your primitive brain is going to do whatever it takes to stop you. Okay? Because it wants to keep you safe, anything different, presents a risk. And so and I really communicate this in my messaging, because all my ideal clients are in survival mode when they come to me. And so I really communicate this that your brain doesn't care if you're unhappy, it really doesn't, it only cares about you getting through the day. So if you are doing things like relying on coping mechanisms, staying up too late at night, for example, or doing the easy things in your business or not eating right, or, or whatever coping mechanism you have, your brain doesn't care about your happiness, it doesn't care about your long term goals, your long term vision, it's just about getting through from one moment to the next. And then another thing that your brain does to try and keep you safe, is to get you to think about the worst-case scenario because your primitive brain when you're in survival mode is very negative. And it's got to keep you safe. So by thinking about all the worst-case scenarios, then you're prepared for them. But the thing that you need to know is that your brain literally cannot tell the difference between what's going on in your imagination and what is real. So every time you're thinking worst-case scenario, your brain is experiencing that and logging that as a pattern, even if it's never ever happened before. And so you're adding to your stress bucket, everybody's got this metaphorical stress bucket in their mind. And the more full it is, the more overwhelmed you get, the more you're struggling with the things that happen when you're in survival mode. And the more you feel stuck. And so yeah, survival mode is very bad for so many reasons. And it's very negative. But yeah, once you get out of survival mode, you're able to think big picture, you're able to prioritize and push yourself to do things that feel a little bit nerve-racking for you. Because you know that it's worth doing because you have the self-belief to get there. So I can't remember what the original question was.

12:51 Kathryn

Yeah, it was it was all around survival mode. And I loved like the whole description and example of like the brain and how the brain works. And you talked about, you know, it, your brain almost goes to that sort of worst-case scenario. And I would love to dive into that a little bit. Because I've heard some people say like, imagine that worst case, like actually imagine it. Do you buy into that? When setting goals? 

13:19 Jenna

No way. The thing is, your brain can't tell the difference between real and imagination. So instead of thinking, worst case scenario, why don't you envisage the best case scenario, because then you're lugging that as an experience in your mind, and your subconscious mind has that has that to work towards so much more fulfilling, and exciting, positive, so much better for you. And the way I work with my clients is solution-focused. So I when I'm talking to my clients and talking about like, coaching them through what they're going to be doing differently next, then the next day or the next week, or whatever. And then we do hypnosis, like, I feel excited myself. Because when we're talking about things and visualizing things, we literally can't tell the difference. So we get excited. And have you ever seen somebody walking down the street, and they don't have a phone in their hand? They don't have any headphones in, but they're smiling. They're obviously in a good faith in their mind, and their brain can't tell the difference between within imagination. So they're smiling. They're feeling good. So definitely, no, I don't subscribe to the worst case scenario and it's got to be better than that. Because your brain literally can't tell the difference. So it's not a good idea.

14:29 Kathryn

Yeah, yeah. And I've heard that a couple times and the same sort of thing. I was kind of like, why would I imagine the worst case scenario and then try to like, beat that worst case scenario, so to speak. 

14:40 Jenna

What goes on in your brain? When you think about that worst case scenario is your brain releases adrenaline, because it doesn't know whether it's happening or whether it's just in your thoughts, and that adrenaline stays in your body and that's what leads to you either feeling exhausted suffering with the brain fog, the lack of concentration being snappy with others, like eating things that you don't want to eat. But we all know that we find it harder to eat the right things late at night, we will want to snack late at night if we have those issues, because your stress bucket by then is full because you've released all the adrenaline through the day from thinking negatively and adding to your stress bucket because you're stuck in survival mode.

15:20 Kathryn

Yeah, and I've never thought of it that way. You know, it's interesting how like, yeah, as the day goes on, right, like sit and veg in front of like Netflix and eat, probably not the best food, but I've never thought of it as like, the stress bucket, but it is sort of the unwinding, right? Like at the end of a long day, like you said, to unwind. You know, it's it's the brain is such a cool thing. So I want to keep diving into sort of, I mean, in terms of solution focus, like what does that actually mean? Right, like, how is what you do different maybe then another hypnotherapist or other people that do mindset work or that sort of thing?

15:58 Jenna

Yeah. Can we come back to that? I just want to share it. Yeah. Yeah, about the stress bucket and the stress bucket being full by the end of the day. That really good thing about your brain that so many good things. But what's amazing about sleep is that your brain empties this stress bucket. So when you prioritize sleep, and your brain will lower the stress bucket overnight. And and that's the new in hypnotherapy does the same thing, it lowers the stress bucket. But if you're having problems with sleep, most of the time, it's because your stress bucket levels are too high. So we need to bring those down. Hypnotherapy helps. So the question that you had was how does solution focus therapy differ to other therapists? Yeah. Well, what is solution focus, so we literally never talk about the problem. Once I know, you know, what's I've got a new client in front of me and I will on the on our discovery call, we find out about the problem, how I can help. After that, from the very first session, it's solution focused. So that is I get all of my clients to keep a positive journal, and write down every day five things that have been good about their day. And by doing that, we rewire the brain to breathe to be more positive, so that that becomes a habit. Because the more positive things we're noticing, we're switching the narrative of our perception of the world. And that helps keep your stress bucket low and helps to be more resilient. And so yeah, we start our session talking about what's been good. And then I do a little bit of teaching, because before I was a hypnotherapist, I was a teacher for 11 years. So in me, this was so good, because I'm sharing, you know, and teaching about the brain all the time. So yeah, because it empowers you, when you know how your brain works. You do things differently, like you don't think worst case scenario, you make sure that you're not feeding yourself a bunch of negative stuff all day long, because, you know, you're stressed buckets gonna fill up. So yeah, what I do is, is my program that I have, that I work with clients on, it's called change your life. And the idea is that they never come back to me, once they finish working with me, they don't ever need to go and see a therapist again. Because number one, they've learned how their brain works. Number two, they know exactly what to do. As soon as they feel that they might be starting to dip into their primitive brain, they know what to do to lift themselves back up. And we've cleared all of the unhelpful stuff from the subconscious mind and replaced it with only helpful stuff that makes you feel worthy and makes you know, that you can achieve whatever you put your mind to and all of these good things. 

18:37 Kathryn

Yeah, that was one of the things I wanted to ask was about, like, you know, doing this. I know, we talk a lot about mindset and doing, you know hypnotherapy and that sort of thing. And then it's like, you walk away from a session, you feel lovely, and amazing. And then it's like, all of a sudden, like this nagging little plot comes into your mind some way throughout the day, like, how long does it take to actually get you out of that, like going back into the primitive patterns? Or is it something that's just an ongoing as you dip down? You know, how to get yourself back out of that,

19:11 Jenna

The clients that I work with, when they come to me, are they really stuck? Yeah, they're proper in survival mode. They don't know how the brain works and everything. So it does take I'd say, three to four weeks, depending on the person but to really get out of survival mode and feel like you've got this. And you thing is to start with when you want you know, like about the intellectual mind and the primitive brain, I get them to sort of analyze their thoughts and think why is this a primitive brain thought or is this an intellectual mind thought, and the way I type the way I try and explain it is that if you think of your primitive brain is a stereo and the volume is turned up really, really loud. So your brain noise is loud. You can't think clearly there's nothing positive going on in there. That's when you come to me and then With my help and over the weeks and with the hypnotherapy that calms down, so the primitive brain is always going to be there. But it's turned right down and you are back in control. And throughout my whole program, I give my clients the support between sessions, so so that especially in the early days, when they sort of maybe aren't sure how to think about a situation I'm there to sort of coach them through what the intellectual mind response would be. But in terms of the subconscious change that can happen literally overnight, like I have a I have a whistle with my clients, they all get a bespoke hypnotherapy audio to listen to at night when they go to sleep. And that's, you know, for them exactly designed for them. But I have a free one on my Instagram bio that people can download. And I've had people message me saying like this, I've had the best night's sleep in 10 years can't believe this is free. I feel calmer and that's just with you know, a generic speak hypnotherapy audio. So, so yeah, it's very quickly in a, in a very quick answer to your question.

21:08 Kathryn

Yeah. And, you know, again, I've I've done some hypnotherapy stuff, and I know how powerful it can be. But I but I have again, heard like entrepreneurs say, you know, like, I that same pattern just keeps reoccurring. Like it's like, I think I feel like I've busted through it. And then all of a sudden, it comes raging again. So I wanted to know, yeah, like, how is this something where you're constantly doing hypnotherapy before bad? Or is it just something that you do? When you feel like, is it like a toolbox where you're like, I need to tap into this thing that I have?

21:40 Jenna

Yeah, so. And within my program, I also do things that do NLP, or Neuro-Linguistic Programming, changing immediately how you feel about a situation in your past, for example, that's, you know, an incident effect. And tapping if they've got a trauma response in their body, we can tap that out. But in terms of what the client does, once they finish the program with me, absolutely, I get them to I recommend them to keep listening to the audio when they go to speak because it lowers the stress bucket just by listening to it, and doing the positivity journal, because why would you not want to notice what's been good, the brain is designed for negativity. So unless we rewire it to notice more of what's been positive, then then it's gonna, it's just a good thing. I listened. I listened to my hypnotherapy audio, and I go to sleep at night, and I do the positivity journal, and I'm in a really, really good place. So it's just, it's just good habits to do.

22:36 Kathryn

Yeah. Yeah. And and I want to go dive a little bit deep into like, passion and purpose, because that's another one that I keep hearing in the entrepreneurial space. Like, I've lost my passion for my business, or I don't know what my purpose is anymore. Do you feel like that is part of living in survival mode? Like, do you feel like we, as human beings have this innate passion and purpose within us? And we've just lost it? Because we are operating in that survival mode?

23:05 Jenna

Yes, definitely. Because I think that most of the time, you'd only go into business, if you were passionate about the idea in the first place. And then you dip down into survival mode, because you get overwhelmed. And then you feel like you've lost, you've fallen out of love with it. But maybe I don't think you probably have, you've just need you're stuck in survival mode, and you just need to come up and out. So you can see the wood from the trees. And, and you can think clearly and you can just feel better. So So yeah,

yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been it's just, I'm in a bunch of different communities. And I've had other you know, clients just say, like, I feel like I've lost that passion in my business. Is it something that I should just get rid of, you know, like, should I pivot or change? Right? And so I'm excited for our listeners to hear this episode, because I want them. One, like you said, we went into business for a reason we started because we're passionate about it. And maybe we do need to pivot. But let's not make that decision from survival. I think yeah, I think a lot of pivoting happens, due to lack of self belief, rather than actually a need to pivot.

24:15 Kathryn

Interesting. Let's unpack that a little bit in terms of like, how to know when to pivot, I guess and like, how do we know it's a self belief thing?

24:27 Jenna

Yeah, um, well, there's not a big question. No, I think it obviously depends on the person, but I think you know, whether you believe in yourself or not, it's not it's not about believing in the business idea. It's about believing in yourself. Because if you don't believe in yourself, you're not going to, you're going to pivot and you're not going to be able to get the next thing off the ground. You literally need self belief if you're a business owner. Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a non starter. You can do well without self belief but you Wow, the potential, like the potential within everybody is just incredible. When you actually believe in yourself, you've got all the resources, but you've got to be in your intellectual mind, like the good part of your brain, the clear part of your brain to access those mental resources. Because when you're in survival mode, there's too much adrenaline in your body. You can't think straight, you can't access those mental resources. So yeah, get out of survival mode first, and then decide if you need to pivot. Yeah. About how to get into get out of survival mode. Yes, I would love that. Yeah. So our brain needs feel good chemicals in order to function well. And modern day life is just so hectic, so stressful, especially with, you know, your phones, we can just use our phones as a coping mechanism and end up sort of a bit glued to them, and, or using any other coping mechanisms. And then you've got a household to look after. And a job and maybe elderly parents has all sorts of challenges in life and our stress buckets can get very full very easily. Now, the thing that brings down the levels of stress in your stress bucket, I call them the three P's. And doing the three P's generate feel good chemicals in your brain, which lift you up out of your primitive brain out of survival mode and into your intellectual mind. Now, I'll say this with a little bit of a caveat, because if somebody is really stuck in survival mode, and their stress bucket is very full, it's gonna feel like a bit of a dip in the ocean. Like, if you're really just in survival mode, these are really, really helped. So the three P's are positive actions. So that is literally doing anything that you enjoy, stop working all day, every day, because your your your zone of genius, all of your ideas, and your creativity comes from the subconscious mind. So if you are just work, work, work, work, work, you're not letting those ideas come through, you need to have some more feel good chemicals, you basically need to enjoy yourself more in life, in order to get the best out of your business. So take time for yourself. Self Care is not selfish, it is needed for the brain. So do things that you enjoy, schedule it in his, you know, put yourself first for once, the next one, positive interactions. So that is being sociable, we are social beings as humans, we need to feel good chemicals that we get from socializing. And number three is positive thinking, when we have a positive mindset, we limit what goes in our stress bucket, because every negative thought goes in our stress bucket. So if we can reframe things and flip things around and look for what is good in life, and feel good, and be grateful, and just overall have a positive mindset, and keep the positivity journal, like anybody listening can start a positive journal and start writing down five things that have been good at the end of every day. Those are the kind of things that are going to give you those feel good chemicals that your brain really, really needs.

28:02 Kathryn

Yeah, so, so beautiful. And I think I mean, I know I, I know, I was in survival mode in the first couple years of entrepreneurship. And like, all three of those pieces that you said was not anything that I was practicing, like, I wasn't putting myself first I wasn't giving myself the space. And I think that is a huge one for high achievers, overachievers, who just work, work, work, work. And a lot of our creativity comes from giving ourselves the space to actually be creative, right? I know even yesterday, this week, you know, Monday was great Tuesday, I started to feel like a dip, right? And I was like, you know, I could just like power through and just do work. But I was like, I'm just gonna block off some time to actually be creative in my business and like, then wake up today and feel like amazing, right? It's just how quickly that can turn and it's so you know, I do want to share with our listeners that like it's it, we will feel these ranges of emotions, right? It's not something like we're just walking around completely positive time. Yeah.

29:07 Jenna

But toxic positivity, you have to feel your feelings. Definitely otherwise you end up with all sorts of problems down the line. But yeah, definitely, where you can start to stop like limit your access to negativity, like for example, the internet makes this so much worse the algorithms on social media they know what you're into engaging with. So if you if you have a very negative mindset be aware of that when you're online and stop following the stuff that doesn't make you feel good. Because Facebook and all the other social media accounts they're going to show you more of that and make things worse for you.

29:44 Kathryn

Yeah, and noticing that in your body right of what content doesn't make you feel good. And being and having that discipline Yeah, to to notice that one and then to to change that behavior or habit. Quickly I would love those tips. And I and I know our listeners are going to love them. But I want to talk a little bit about the body because I know we talked about adrenaline and how like, what are the impacts of living in survival in the body?

30:13 Jenna

In the body? So many. Google chronic stress, it's not good, all sorts of physical symptoms, we, we can talk skin conditions. Yeah, so much disease is just dis ease, isn't it? So we need to be in a good place and survival mode is not a good place. So. So yeah, look after yourself, make sure that you are priority number one. And the thing I said about earlier about making time for yourself and just not work, work work. That is counterintuitive, because the problem is, so many people don't know how the brain works. And when you know this stuff, it makes such a difference. Because suddenly, actually, you're like, Okay, I'm struggling a bit more. Basically, when pressure and work stress goes up, or any life stress goes up, so does the need for your three P's, your positive actions, interactions and positive thinking, because those are the things that are keeping you in a good place to start with. So as soon as the stress goes up, the need for three P's goes up, not down, which is what we tend to do, isn't it?

31:18 Kathryn

100% 100%? And yeah, like I said, I know that I completely those were out the window in the first two years of entrepreneurship, because it was like, you know that the mentality is to like, work more, work more, and the working more is gonna fix the problem, so to speak, when really, you said those, increase the three P's. And watch how that totally shifts. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. I mean, I could chat about the brain all day long. I know our listeners are gonna love this. And I know a lot of them have been asking about like survival mode or it's, it's come up in a lot of conversation. So I know they're really going to benefit from this. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?

31:59 Jenna

And just to say thank you, thank you so much for having me on. And I did mention the sleep hypnotherapy audio earlier, which people can get for free. So are your listeners mostly on Instagram? 

32:11 Kathryn

I have a handful on Instagram? I have. That's mostly where I hang out. But I've got a lot of people on Facebook as well. But yeah, we can link that will link up your Instagram. Where can they find you? Yeah.

32:24 Jenna

So yeah, if you're an Instagram you can find me @believeandachievewithjenna. And then I'll also give you the direct link for anybody who's not on Instagram to get the sleep audio.

32:36 Kathryn

Yeah, well, it's been such a pleasure. Like I said, I know our listeners are gonna love this episode, and we will link up everything in the show notes for them.

32:45 Jenna

Thank you very much. Thank you