Breaking the Stagnation Cycle: Avoid the Most Common Operational Pitfalls for Sustainable Business Growth with Jhana Li

INTRO

Kathryn Thompson: [00:00:00] hey, hey. Super stoked to have Jonna here today. I cannot wait to dive into today's topic all around how to scale some of the biggest mistake cos make when scaling. But without further ado, I'm just gonna turn it straight over to you so you can share with our listeners who you are, what you do, and, and who you serve.

Jhana Li: Amazing. Catherine, I'm so excited to be here. So thank you for having me. Um, yeah, the very quick overview is that I was an operator for a long time, head of op c o, for multiple seven figure digital businesses. Um, and at one point I had the opportunity to be an operations coach for hundreds of digital businesses and.

All of that experience gave me a pretty robust understanding of like what operations needs to look like to help companies successfully scale up, as well as what we're here to talk about today. What are the most common pitfalls that consistently stall out or stagnate CEOs as they try and scale? And so after enough time I took all of that information, I put it into my own operations methodology, and that is when I coached people on today.

Kathryn Thompson: So [00:01:00] amazing because I know there's a lot of listeners that are in the stage of scaling. Yep. And there are a lot of pitfalls that CEOs can hit. So do you wanna share some of this pitfalls or mistakes that they're making as they're trying to scale? Totally. 

Jhana Li: So, In thinking about this episode, I essentially whittled it down to four and we'll see if we can get through all four.

I would love that. Um, but the, the overview of it is, number one, a major identity shift that every c e o has to go through when it comes to growing and scaling a team. Number two is a, a shift in their understanding of their own time and the value of their time. Uh, third is in, uh, A critical behavioral shift that needs to happen when it comes to setting company strategy and creating consistent strategy.

And then the fourth mistake is, uh, waiting too long to implement operations as a lever for growth in their business. 

Kathryn Thompson: Ooh, these are gonna be juicy and I really hope get into whole four of them. So with the first one, [00:02:00] what is the identity shift that has to happen when scaling a team? 

Jhana Li: Yes. So when you were a solopreneur, c e o, a hundred percent of your success came from this belief that said, I have to get everything done.

I will get everything done. I can get everything done. And so you showed up, you did everything. Success was about how hard you could work and how innovative you could be. It was all about you. And so you grew this like intense discipline and work ethic and ability to show up and deliver. The challenge is, is that when you start to grow and scale a team, It's no longer about you.

And so your success and literally the, the deal breaker of your success shifts away from how hard you can work, to how hard can you inspire a team to work? How creative can you be to how creative can you get your team to be? So it's this. It's this like radical identity shift around what does it mean to be an entrepreneur?

What does it mean to be [00:03:00] successful at this next stage of growth? And it's this like relinquishing of control. That success comes down to me. And shifts towards success comes down to how well I can lead and inspire others. And that is a really, really hard shift to make. But at like the root cause, it is also the deal breaker factor between whether you're going to be able to effectively delegate, effectively, empower your team, get the highest levels of performance and creativity from that team, or if you will just like.

Always be dragging them along behind you, like some giant ball and chain while you're continuing to trudge forward. Be like, no, I, I can do it. Right. And at some point, that just becomes a really inefficient way to lead your business and to lead yourself to burnout. Yeah. And, and 

Kathryn Thompson: really top performers aren't gonna stick around, which is one thing I often say to people, right?

Like, top performers aren't gonna stick around in that. Um, you said something really interesting about it's, it no longer becomes about you and it becomes Yeah. Like how well you're able to really inspire that team. And one of the things [00:04:00] I often hear from CEOs that I work with, With as a copywriter, marketing is and done for you.

So I'll, I'll work with them one on one. Mm-hmm. And I'll kind of come into their team and the same thing I'll hear is, is like, well, this is just how I work. This is just how I am. Yeah. And that's that identity piece of like, I used to be able to do it all. I could do it last minute if I needed to because I didn't have anyone else I was relying on, but not have got this team that is going to need me to lead.

Yeah. And there's a, there's a big shift from being an entrepreneur. To being a 

Jhana Li: leader. Yes, absolutely. And there's an identity shift, and then there's a, a skillset shift, right? And the reframe I always offer is like, okay, before you started your business, you were probably terrible at sales. And then you started your business and you had to learn and you had to figure it out, and you did it enough times and you got there, right?

Yeah. Leadership is exactly the same way. I think people oftentimes, uh, assign leadership like in like a label. Like I am a leader, or I am not a leader. But [00:05:00] leadership is just a skill. It's like sales, right? It can be learned, it can be practiced, it can be mastered. And when you were small, your business didn't need you to have that skill and all it's asking you to do exactly in the same way that you learned sales.

It's now asking you to learn to be a leader, but you as a C E O have to be willing to sign up for that learning curve and to tackle it in the same way you've tackled every other learning curve that your business has thrown at you. 

Kathryn Thompson: So amazing. This is like literally if people are listening to this, you need to go back and like listen multiple times because this is, yeah, like one of the things I experience as my own C E O but as I work with other C E Os I see it, right?

You see it in their company, whether you're multiple six, seven figures. It's at every level as that big shift that needs to happen. The other one is time. You mentioned time, which I. I really wanna dive into because it's such an interesting one. 

Jhana Li: Yeah, totally. So the big mistake I see made around time [00:06:00] is that as a, again, founder, c e o success comes from, okay, well I'm just gonna do it.

I can do it. I have the time to do it. I will outwork any problem. I will just work longer. I will just work harder. The challenge again, as you start to scale up and grow is that obviously the amount of things that your company needs done, Outweighs the amount of time that you have available in the day, and so your time as a C E O actually gets more and more valuable.

It is an appreciating asset. Mm-hmm. What you could do with an hour of your time when you're small, a solopreneur is like, Hop on another call with a client. Close another deal. Make another couple thousand bucks what you could do with an hour of your time as a multi seven figure c e o. An eight figure. C e o is hop on a stage and close 10 people in a room or form a new strategic partnership that could drive a million dollars into your business in the next two years.

Right? The value of your time appreciates. [00:07:00] But that totally sneaks up on us. And so we continue to treat our time as if it was just as valuable as it was three months ago, six months from now, like ago, two years ago. And so we continue to show up and do the really low value things and the low leverage things that make perfect sense for us to do way back when, but are now not just like annoying, not just frustrating.

Like if I went to any c e O in your audience, they could tell me off the top of their head what things they hate doing in their business. Right. But frustration is not enough for them to stop doing it. Mm. Because we're founders, we will just outwork the problem. It's not frustrating guys. It's not annoying.

It's expensive. It is costing your business money because the time that you currently are allocating to all these low leverage value tasks is time that could have been spent. Getting up on that stage, forming the next strategic partnership, closing a major client, right? You are lose it's [00:08:00] opportunity cost that you are losing out on when you refuse to allocate your time according to the value that it's at.

And so there's a, you know, an exercise that I walk people through. There's a time audit that I recommend CEOs do so that they cons, consistently reassess the value of their time and ask themselves the question. Am I filling my day with the things that will drive the highest value to my business? Or have I reached the point where it is actually ROI positive for me to delegate that out because I would make more money by buying back my time.

Hmm. 

Kathryn Thompson: So amazing. And that's basically what you help your clients with, right? Is this big, big part of it is helping them identify. Cause that was gonna be my question is like how do you know when it's time to shift the low level stuff to and hire team? 

Jhana Li: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's at early stages, something that I help CEOs with directly.

But the reality is Catherine, like for many of the larger CEOs in your audience, it's something their operators should be [00:09:00] doing for them. Like the operator's job is to optimize everyone's time in the business, including and starting with the CEOs. Yeah. So CEOs don't necessarily always like their operator like.

Budding into their calendar that way. But if you give them the opportunity to say, Hey, audit me. Tell me what I should be doing. Tell me what should be coming off my plate, and then hire the person or build the system or automate the thing so I don't have to do it anymore. That's their job, right? It's just a matter of whether you are freeing up enough of their time and you're asking them for that.

Kathryn Thompson: Yeah, which is a big one I think, because if, if you're a C E O that's scaling, there's that control factor. Like, how do I relinquish control to the operator? Am I giving them the freedom to do this and or am I staying in the weeds of my company out of control and have I made that identity shift? Exactly.

Jhana Li: Exactly. To step up. Without number, without pitfall number one, we can't get to pitfall number two, right? Like if we continue to believe that our company comes just [00:10:00] down to us and what we can make happen, we're never going to give up the things that need to come off our plate so we can continue to show up at our best for our business.

Kathryn Thompson: Yeah. So brilliant. And then, then number two hinges on number three. Totally. 

Jhana Li: Yes. These things all linked together. Absolutely. Yeah. So number three to remind everybody is around strategy. Um, and again, i I will refer to what made you successful when you were small, when you were small. Success was all about what you said yes to.

Yes. I will try that, Mr. Client. Yes, we'll go after that niche. Yes, I will attempt this new service that I've never done before, but let's just try it, right? Like yes, always. Yes, all the time. That's what made you successful. You needed that like hyper creativity, rapid trial and error. That's how you found your product fit.

That's how you identified your niche. That's what made you build the foundation of the business you have today. It was brilliantly done. [00:11:00] And now that you're scaling a team, now that you are trying to move your company not just in all directions, but in a single direction, saying yes all the time. The thing that made you so successful up until now is now going to actively stall you out because yes, always starts rowing your boat in 10 different directions, and everyone's rowing in different directions, and everyone's rowing as hard as they can.

But if they're rowing in different directions, the net movement to the boat is zero. And so I see bus and I've seen literally like. 500 K per month, 800 K per month. Businesses absolutely flatlined just plateau in growth because the c e o never relinquished or understood that, wow, I am saying yes to too many things because in the moment, saying yes to this new product or this new offer is like, Ooh, more revenue.

In my pocket. Ooh, more money on the table. I can put it in my pocket, right? Without realizing that by sending your team in so many different directions, they can't [00:12:00] commit to a single direction and drive absolute compound momentum and growth in that direction. And at some point, your numbers just start to flatline because your team cannot keep up with the rate of innovation.

Yeah. 

Kathryn Thompson: And again, if you're listening to this, you have to like replay this cuz this is just absolute genius because I see this so much too from the outside looking in, in, in companies. Yeah. Um, and being pulled in all of the different directions. What do you feel like is the hardest thing for a CO at this stage to let go of?

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jhana Li: I, the, the most common objection I get when I share this information with CEOs is, but innovation is what I love to do. Are you telling me I need to stop innovating in my business? And the answer is no. I'm not telling you that at all. You have to innovate. That's your unique genius. Nobody else at your company can innovate as well as you can, can [00:13:00] come up with ideas the way that you can.

I'm not telling you to turn off your superpower, right? Yeah. What your company is asking you to do. Is to choose a strategic vision. Choose a a cardinal direction. Are we going north? Are we going south or are we going west? Are we going east? Right? Choose a direction and then innovate that way, right? So once you have a strategic vision, you say, cool, we're going north.

Then if I'm coming up with 10 ideas every day, But nine of them would take us southwest and east. Now I have a, a, a bearing, I have a guideline against which I can evaluate my ideas and ask myself the question, is this really going to move us towards our strategic vision or is this a side quest? Is this a detour?

Is this a shiny object that, yeah, there's money on the table over there. But we know that the most money is directly in front of us if we just keep going, right? And so the, it's not a matter of stopping to innovate. It's a matter of becoming disciplined and recognizing that not every [00:14:00] idea you have is going to get executed.

And then again, this is where I'm calling on the operators here. Operators, you need to build the infrastructure around your C E O to support their genius and highlight their genius and allow them to continue to live in that creative space, but also filter their ideas systematically so that only the best ones, only the ones that are aligned with the strategic vision actually make it through and can actually be executed on.

Kathryn Thompson: Yeah, so that dynamic between the operator and the C E O, it's an interesting dynamic to watch because the operator. Is the one that's often saying no to the c e o and unless you have that skill to be able to really do that. Yes. And to hold that there's friction there. Right. And oftentimes we run from friction or we run from conflict.

It's like a bad thing. But in companies I often see, I'm like, that's when you see friction between that Opry and that co. That's a beautiful [00:15:00] thing. Yes. As long as that relationship stays healthy. But it's beautiful because it shows. That, that operator's really holding their ground in what gets filtered and what doesn't get filtered.

Yeah. Yes, 

Jhana Li: I have, so my, my core coaching programs are actually for the operator, but once a month we bring the visionary in, we call them power couple coaching sessions, and it's, it's literally that, right? It's how do we optimize your friction? How do we optimize your two superpowers so that you can work well together?

Because one cannot. Turn this company into what you want it to be without the other. But both have to make, not compromises, but they have to learn how to work together in order to make that happen. 

Kathryn Thompson: Yeah. So beautiful. And then in terms of the fourth one? Mm-hmm. Three. Three obviously hinges on four, so Yeah.

Yes. 

Jhana Li: So waiting too long to implement operations. Um, I think for the listeners who are, you know, hearing me talk about all this, and they're like, well, I don't have an [00:16:00] operator. How do I know when is the right time to hire that person in? And then I also often Catherine meet with CEOs who are like, oh, I don't have an operator.

But then when we look at their team, turns out you absolutely do. They're just, you're calling them a project manager or an executive assistant or an account manager. But this person absolutely has the operator, d n a, and you just need to invite them into that role and give them the training they need.

Right? Yeah. So at what stage of growth does it make sense to make that higher the job of operations guys? Isn't to drive the next a million dollar idea into your business, right? That's your job. Yeah. The job of your operator is to take that million dollar idea, turn it into a reality, and do it in such a way where all the leaks in your bucket.

Get closed because from the, the CEO's perspective, like if your business is a bucket, marketing and sales is water pouring into the top of the bucket. Pour more water, pour more water, pour more water. That's how we increase the water line. The problem is, is that [00:17:00] the faster you pour in the water, The leaks in the buckets start to crack and grow and evolve and get bigger and get more and more expensive, more water rushing out of the bucket.

So your operator affects the water line just as much as you do, but they don't do that by pouring more water in the top. They do that by closing the leaks in the bucket so that the water you're generating. Can stay in the bucket, the waterline can actually rise. Yeah. And so it's, it's not a perfect science as far as when should I bring in operations?

It depends on the business model and the complexity of it and the c e o and, and their proclivities towards systems. Right. Many, many variables. The question I would ask you CEOs is, are the little mistakes and the little wastes of your time and the little balls that get dropped and the just the few leads that fall out of that marketing pipeline, or never hop on the sales call or the client that turns out, are those things starting to cost you money because those [00:18:00] are the leaks in your bucket and there is a better person out there than you.

To identify those leaks, figure out how to close them and do that for you. That's your operator. And so generally, Catherine, where I see this hit is anywhere in the. 40 K to 75 K per month range for most digital businesses. Again, depends on the model. It certainly, it becomes like an aching need. Yeah. In the a hundred to 150 K per month range.

And any business that is growing beyond that with operations, I'm sorry, but you are losing tens of thousands of dollars every single month. What are you doing? 

Kathryn Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. You talk about the deal. Okay. Is there a specific d n a of the person that, um, is best suited for operations? 

Jhana Li: Yes, there is. Um, and it's something that I, that I offer CEOs when I help on a call with them.

It's like, you know what, let's do a D N A scan, because yeah, you're not an operator, [00:19:00] so you can't recognize that in another. So I will do my best to give you that description, but really, like it takes one to know one, um, the, the core skill. Is what I call level three thinking. Level three thinking is, is complex systems analysis.

So when I look at a business, okay, let me back up. When you as a C E O look at a business, you are seeing, Ooh, we could drive more revenue if we did this, we could launch this new offer. There's an opportunity over here. You are seeing opportunity everywhere. When I look at a business, I'm saying, Ooh, you got a.

Big old gap right there. These two systems, those are not working together. This thing over here that's causing you pain, it's actually related to a totally seemingly unrelated issue over here in your HR or your lack of strategic vision is the reason your team is leaving, right? Like I can't help but.

Break things down in terms of systems and patterns and how do things fit together and where are the gaps. Any operator I talk to sees the world that way. They may [00:20:00] not know it, they may not be able to put words to it, but if you can ask 'em the right set of questions and see that they're thinking and they're seeing it in that way.

Then operations is just like a set of tools and skills that we put on top of that. Without that underlying lens, they're never gonna be a very good operator with it. And with the right training, they can be exceptional. 

Kathryn Thompson: Mm, brilliant. And in terms of the cracks, cuz you talked about cracks in the bucket, are there.

Specific cracks that like that just start leaking out that you see like, yes. Marketing and sales stuff. Because I've again worked with these businesses on the outside sort of looking in and then corporate. Yeah. And you can have a seven figure multiply figure and be bleeding money. Yes. And it's because.

There's these leaks in the bucket. You could be filling a team full of people you actually don't even need just to fill the holes. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jhana Li: Yes. So to answer that question, I would, I would start with my, my personal definition of operations, which is any action [00:21:00] required within a business to optimize a company's use of its four resources.

Those resources are time. Energy, money, and human potential. So where you're going to see cracks is along those four resources. You as the c e O, are going to notice that more and more of your time is being spent in the weeds of your business working in your company instead of working on it, you may notice that your team's time is also starting to get sucked more and more into like, Hey, where are we at with that client?

Hey, what's the status here? Oh, did you do that? No, I'm still working on it. Oh, okay. Right. Like your team's time is starting to get sucked into just keeping the balls in the air as opposed to actually doing their jobs. Hmm. That part time is really going to open up. You're going to notice, like your Slack channel is starting to get busier and busier and busier.

Your day is starting to get filled with your team, coming to you for random questions and your client fires popping up and all of these things are happening that are wasting really wasting [00:22:00] your time. Right. So that's time, energy is along those same lines, you're going to notice that you are having to do things in your business that you really hate.

The energy drains, right? Like the things that you would procrastinate forever and that you absolutely hate doing them. You've got finite energy every day if you're spending that energy on the things that drain you. There is no energy left over for the creativity and the innovation that lights you up.

Your business will suffer as a result, right? Mm-hmm. So your energy is not being used well, maybe you're fitting in little bits of creativity like after hours or in the morning or on the weekends. Cause that's the only time that you've got energy to be creative and to have some time to think that's a problem.

Your business is suffering money. This one's a little bit more obvious, like again, Client fires all day every day. Clients are churn out, sales leads are dropping out of the funnel due to a lack of organization or a lack of follow up. That is money that is actively making out your business. And [00:23:00] then the fourth one is my personal favorite.

Human potential. Yeah, human potential guys like, think of it as like a giant pile of money underneath your bed. It's there. It's there whether you're putting it to work or not. Your team comes to the table every day capable of giving you their best, but are they? Yeah, in how you lead in, how you support them, in how you hire them, train them, manage them, fire them.

Are you creating an ecosystem that maximizes yours and your team's human potential? Because if not, that's like keeping a pile of money under your bed. Yeah, you can do it, but like, wouldn't you rather put that money to work within your business? It's just wasteful. It's just inefficient, right? Yeah. And so human potential is you'll, you'll notice it when it feels like your team is super reactive.

Your team is coming to you for everything. Your team is asking you the same questions over and over and over again. Your team is demotivated or checked out, [00:24:00] or you're experiencing high employee turnover. Any of these are symptoms that there is a human potential leak in your bucket and the well-trained operator can put the right HR systems and strategies and leadership in place to actually close that, that gap.

Kathryn Thompson: So do you find visionaries, cuz it talks about, you know, you talked about like hiring that operations person when to know how to, when to do that. But do you find that even when a CEO hires that operations person, they're not necessarily quite ready? For what's gonna happen, like in terms of like the higher operations and that might have tons of potential.

And then that operator gets in there and they're like, peace out. I'm out. Because the CEO's almost trying to still do the operator's job. 

Jhana Li: Yes, absolutely. And again, no judgment to the CEOs if that has been you and your experience because you've never worked with an operator before. You don't even.

Probably before this podcast, we weren't quite sure what operations even was. Like wasn't, isn't my ops manager just supposed to [00:25:00] like follow me around and pick up the balls that I dropped? Like, isn't that operations right? So without, Like success, clearly defined in the role and without the proper time and tools to do that job and be successful in it.

No operator is gonna do their best work. You will be perpetually disappointed with the work that they do, and you will feel like, Ugh, they didn't quite get it. I'm gonna have to go in there. And fix it and clean it up. All just do it right. But let's recognize the root cause there. It has nothing to do with your operator and their ability or lack of ability to do the job, right.

It's about do we understand what this role is here to do, how to set this person up for success. And I will also put some responsibility on the operators here, Catherine, because most operators also don't know what their job is. Yeah. Right? Like they're just the every thing person. I'm just here to catch everyone's balls and, and put them through the hoop.

Yeah. Also not your job. But as an operator, if you don't know that you can't set up great boundaries around your role, you can't advocate [00:26:00] for your role, you can't set your own priorities and set boundaries around them. You can't do any of these things. So in my coaching programs, we spend an enormous amount of time on just helping operators recognize their own genius and the specific value add they bring to a business.

Because without that, they can't advocate for themselves and ultimately do their best work. 

Kathryn Thompson: So brilliant. And so do you also help CEOs find operators that would fit within their business based on their own D n A and how they're wired and that sort of thing? Because that relationship obviously is super important and not every operator's gonna jive with every c e o and, and all of that.

Jhana Li: Totally. Totally. Yeah. So if there is a C E O who's like, maybe I have an operator, I'm not quite sure, or I really don't think I do. The first step always is that we would go in and do an audit of their business. We analyze their team with our little operator, d n a metal detector, and we let them know whether there is somebody on their team or not.

We also sometimes go the reverse where they're like, oh, I love my operator, and then we talk to them. We're like, Yeah, that's not your [00:27:00] operator, right? So we're able to, to make sure that they have the right person on the bus, and then we can get to training them and leveling that person out. 

Kathryn Thompson: So cool. We've covered a lot today and I know ours are gonna love this, and I, I mean, I've loved it and I, and I laugh, people will be able to see me sort of laughing because as you're sharing it, I was just like, I've either been in a company like that where the c e O was doing that, which is again, no judgment.

When you're an entrepreneur and you're building a company or a business, You don't, you don't come with the skillset to be a leader. And there is that shift. You'd be a senior. Yeah. Nobody Totally. Yeah. And then, and then to release the control, right? When you've built this thing from the ground up, um, to then allow and see the potential in your team to be able to carry this vision with you, um, and to help execute and implement on this, on this vision.

So we've covered a lot. There's so much golden nuggets here. I cannot wait for our listeners to hear it. Is there anything else you feel like you wanna share that maybe we didn't cover? 

Jhana Li: I, I think [00:28:00] I will like sum it all up and as you were talking, this sparks for me, like I'll sum it all up with the simple sentence of, guys, what got you here will not get you there.

Right? What got you here was brilliant. You did a phenomenal job. No one is making you wrong for having done exactly what you needed to do in that stage of growth. But what got you here will not get you there. Your business is just asking you for a level up, and let's be honest, isn't that why we're all in business so that it can constantly keep challenging us and asking us to grow?

That's all that's happening here, and so if you're experiencing the fires or the frustrations that I covered today, That's just data that your business is giving you say, Hey, time for the next level up. Time to go find the person who can teach you that skill or implement that in your business and get you back to doing what you do best.

Yeah. 

Kathryn Thompson: And that, you know, I love becau I love what you just shared because what got you here won't get you there. I, you know, you often hear that and like, okay, but I don't understand. [00:29:00] Yeah, I know what got me here, but now I don't know where to go. But you covered the steps on really what needs to happen to get you to that next level, um, which is so practical and brilliant.

So where can people find you if they wanna reach out, connect with 

Jhana Li: you? Totally. So I would direct them to one of two places. The first would oddly. Obviously just be my website, spyglass ops.com. You can learn about what we do there and you can book a call with us. Um, if this was helpful and you don't know if you're ready to work with us, but you want more of this, then I would direct you over to our free Facebook group, Spyglass Ops.

You can find us on Facebook. Um, but I drop live operational training in there every single week, and so that's a really great source of just like ongoing education. If you feel like you're not quite at the point that you need operations. Or you feel like you need a little more education around like, what is this?

What is it gonna do for me? That's gonna be the best place to go. 

Kathryn Thompson: Awesome. And we'll link all of that up in the show notes. And I wanna just touch on one final thing as you were saying that, because if you don't know if you're ready yet Yeah. At some point you, you need this. [00:30:00] Yes. Like, and I, yeah, you, you, you need this in order to scale.

And I think that, Um, this is one of the areas I see a lot of companies and businesses wait way too long to actually do this, right? Yeah. Which is that step four, they wait way too long or they don't maybe see the value in investing in this or Yep. They don't see the value in even investing in leadership, which is crazy because it's what you need to actually grow and scale your team so, 

Jhana Li: And I will say, Catherine, like, guys, if you're unsure, just hop on a call with my team.

I promise you, if it's not yet time, we will tell you. I tell so many CEOs, get off the phone with me. Go figure out your sales. Right? You're not ready for operations yet, but if you're not sure, or if you think you're close, then. The best way to get clarity on that is to talk with an expert who can help diagnose what you're seeing in your business, help you make sense of it, and then help you clarify a game plan of like, if not now, then when, if not this person then who.

And we can answer all of those questions for you on a simple 30 minute call. So 

Kathryn Thompson: brilliant. [00:31:00] So yes, definitely reach out. The links will be in the show notes so that they can reach out to you. This has been so amazing. Thank you for being here. I know they're gonna love this conversation. So 

Jhana Li: amazing. I had so much fun.

Thanks Catherine. 

Kathryn Thompson: Thank you.

OUTRO