How to Hire High-Quality Team Members with Emily Perron

Hey hey, Kathryn here! I’m so glad you’re tuning in. If you’re new to the show, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here. If you’ve been around for a bit, you know I’m all about keeping it real with you. Showing you all the sides of entrepreneurship (& life). I mean it’s all connected, right? 

I shared one of my favorite Brene Brown quotes,  if you’re not in the arena getting your ass-kicked, I don’t want your feedback. Well, I want you to see me as your friend in the arena equally getting my ass-kicked but inspiring you to keep going because I get it. I’m living it too.

And that the perspectives I share on the show are real life, in the arena types of perspectives, like the one I’m going to share with you today.

But before I do, I want to share an exciting opportunity with you. On Sunday, February 6th I’m hosting another private training showing thought leaders, changemakers, coaches, and consultants how to create killer messaging in their business that not only sounds like them but sets them apart as a leading authority in their industry.

This training is money…and if there is anything a business owner should invest in, it’s their ability to articulate what they do in a unique and compelling way.

If you’re in business, you’re in the business of words! Words are what connect us and without connection, you’ll have a hard time selling let alone creating the change you want to see happen in the world.

So, if that sounds like something you’re wanting to learn, head on over to the link in the show notes and apply now, or visit creativelyowned.com/joinuslive

Now let’s dive into the good stuff for today. Building a team can be a challenging experience, but today’s guest is sharing with us how to find high-quality team members.

Emily Perron helps bloggers and online entrepreneurs expand and improve their teams with talented freelancers. Her number one goal is to align the right person with the right role, so business owners and freelancers alike feel empowered to work within their individual skill sets and strengths. Her expertise lies in hiring and managing in your Zone of Genius. 

She has a Master's Degree in Industrial and Organizational Psychology and Bachelor's Degree in Psychology and English. Her professional background includes working in marketing, coaching, and organizational consulting. Her past work and education make Emily uniquely qualified to understand what business owners need help with and to put systems in place to find the best person to fill that role.

So without further adieu let’s welcome Emily to the show.

PRE-RECORDED INTRO:

00:04 Kathryn

Hey, hey, I am super stoked to have Emily on the show today. We are diving into how to build a team, hiring, all the stuff that goes into bringing on really great people for your business to help you with your business. So without further ado, I'm just going to turn it right over to Emily. So she can share who she is, what she does and who she serves.

00:23 Emily

Oh, thanks, Katherine. I'm excited to be here. So I got my start, my crew really got started in the corporate world, I spent about 10 years at a fortune 500 company. And while I was there, I was a hiring manager for a portion of it, I also was always that person people went to to help with the hiring process. So that's kind of how I got my feet into this world. And then while I was in the corporate space, I also earned a master's degree in industrial organizational psychology. So I was really into this, right, like I had the experience of education. And so when I launched my business as a career coach, back in 2015, I thought I could hire help. So hired for about a year and I was pretty or I was on the early side of hiring because I felt like I knew what I was doing. I knew how to do this, I had done it before I could do this, even if I was just hiring someone for a few hours a week. And then I just launched into a couple years of a lot of mistakes. And there weren't a lot of experts at the time. And I would say even today that are helping people figure this piece out, like how to build your team on a really small scale. Like how do you get started when you don't have anyone else or you need freelance support, you really just need a few hours a week, you don't need a full time employee. And, and so that's where I just started figuring it out. And over time, my business friends started coming to Me for guidance on what I was doing, because I was having so much success finding writers and, and virtual assistants in my own business. And so a few years ago, I started recruiting mostly working with food bloggers, and you know, helping them build their teams. And yeah, that's really brought me to today and I love it. I love helping people build their teams, it really is my zone of genius. It's really fulfilling. 

02:12 Kathryn

So cool. Um, I know that yeah, like hiring people kind of within that first year, I know it took when I first left corporate and went into entrepreneurship owned a brick and mortar. Like it took two years, but I like was resistant to hiring help or getting help. And so how do you know when you're ready to do it?

02:35 Emily

Right, I think it's different for a lot of people. I think there's some individual difference. One thing that I see that with my clients, and the people that you know, take my programs is they're often times they're getting to the edge of burnout, they just cannot do more. And their growth is stale. Right? Like they can't, because they cannot take on more. They're also missing out on opportunities. That's another big sign. And yeah, they're just at that place of questioning, right? Like, why am I doing this? Why am I doing everything? This isn't what I got into business for, you know, a lot of people I work with, too, are pretty creative. So, you know, they want to be, they want to be doing some of the work, maybe not all of it Their sole business, but they're also looking for that support and figuring out that balance.

03:27 Kathryn

Yeah. So how do we know that like, I work with lots of creatives, creatives, as well, and I am a creative and so I do love the creation process. That's what lights me up, right? So when we owned our wine business, it was like, how like, how to market it and like how to make the wine and all that stuff was really fun in the early stages of business. And yes, it absolutely hit a massive burnout. And then when I started my online business, I was probably still a little resistant to hiring. Although it didn't take me as long because I had learned in my brick and mortar. That one yes, you in order to grow. We do have to build that team. But how do you know what type of person to bring in? Because I know in the online space, it was like do I need a VA? Do I need copywriters? Do I need? What do I need in my business? How do we identify that?

04:14 Emily

Yes. So I really believe in starting with yourself first. You as the business owner, you need to be really clear about your strengths, your personality. What you want to do. This is where I think organizational strategy really thinking about the full picture of the team you would like to build in the next few years. You don't have to hire all the roles next week. But just be thinking through like maybe you do I mean thinking through what you want to keep number one so what do you want your role in your business to look like? And then from there you can it becomes more clear which roles need to be outsourced. I know another another framework I use with this is I really like Gay Hendricks four zones of work. Are you familiar with that one, I am, okay, you know it. Alright. So just for anyone who's not though, it's I think of it like a pyramid. So at the bottom is incompetence. And then it's competence, excellence and genius. And like, the goal here is to spend as much of your time as the business owner in your zone of genius, because that's where the fulfillment is coming. That's where your greatest productivity lives as well. And so that means you have to outsource those other zones, or at least some of them. And so I usually recommend starting to look at what's in your incompetence, the stuff you're not good at, and competence and stuff you can do. Because as entrepreneurs, we are so good at this, right. Like, I can do a lot of things like anytime I find myself saying, I can do it, that is a great sign, I should probably put it on a list, like think about outsourcing that eventually, because it's just not the best use of my time. Because I could literally do a lot of things, right? Yeah. Wired.

05:59 Kathryn

Yeah. And I love that you say that because I, it is such a struggle. When, what if you're multi passionate, if you're a high achiever, if you're good at a lot of things, you went into entrepreneurship, you're a problem solver, right? So you're, you know, you can do a lot of things, it doesn't mean that you should do a lot of things. And so, and you touched on productivity and being putting your energy in the places where you can be the most productive, and that's at that zone of genius. Point, right?

06:26 Emily

Yeah, exactly. Well, because, to me, genius. That's where the energy comes from, write everything below genius is draining. And that's a sign, right. That's like a really good indicator of excellence to genius. Sometimes that line can be kind of murky, because excellence is the stuff we're so good at, like we are better than most people at those things. But they just don't make you come alive the same way genius does. And they're just more draining. They're not as not quite as fulfilling or meaningful. But then there's all this like obligation on us. Right, that we should do it because we are so good at it. And so I would challenge like, that's kind of the next level, like once you have a lot of your incompetence and competence covered, you can start carving out some of that those excellence components as well. 

07:12 Kathryn

Yeah. So how do we let go of that? Because I do know that a lot of entrepreneurs that I work with, and just talk to in my in my circle of friends, who are entrepreneurs, like that releasing of control, right, like, if we are in that excellent zone, or even if we're like incompetence, and we think we're good, you know, that releasing control of like, can I find somebody who can do it better than me? What if they don't do it better than me? How do we handle that as entrepreneurs?

07:41 Emily

Yeah, so I think from my perspective, I think it is really about starting small, it's not, you know, I think if it's, if there's something in your business that is really hard to let go of, you're really struggling to outsource it. I don't know, I don't think that is the place to start. That's why I like looking at the bottom of the pyramid, some of those lower risk items, so that you can learn and get the wins, you know, because it really comes from lived experience. I don't know that there is any way around this, I think we each have to grow as leaders and managers, and that path of growth looks different for everyone, right? We're coming in at different places in our careers in our, in our business developments. And yeah, so that's what I really think. I truly believe in starting small, and getting some low risk wins, so that you can grow from there.

08:35 Kathryn

Totally. And when you, uh, you know, decide to hire out and hire that first, like team member, I do want to distinguish for our listeners between you know, freelancers, contractors, versus like actually hiring in like a full time employee, so to speak, just so that they know what we're talking about when you can go and hire a full time employee. But do you recommend that people dive feet first and hire that full time person first or really sort of using the freelance contractors first to kind of get your feet wet?

09:06 Emily

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So there's a couple things there right first is like the difference between the freelancers in the employees, so I'm not an accountant or an attorney. Yes, leave a little disclaimer there. But so speak to those kinds of professionals if you need more detailed advice, but at a high level an employee is someone you have a lot more control over so you can tell them when they're going to work. You can tell them what they're going to where you provide all of the tools and equipment they need to do their jobs. Typically, they're on location but they don't always have to be There's definitely lots of remote working even more now today. The freelancer side, they provide their own equipment, they set their own hours. So you do give up control, but what you get is a more specialized worker. And because they're so specialized, you also usually need them for far less time. And I was due to just the way the world has been changing the last couple years. But even in the last five to 10, more people are looking for more part time work, they're looking to do multiple things, they don't want to spend so much time in, in one business in one role. And so that's where the Freelancer can really come into play. The other great thing about freelancers is that typically, they can come in for a few hours a week, they can be in your business for three to five hours a week, where most people looking for true employment are not open or willing to do that. Like, that's just not their mindset. And so that's some of the differences. Of course, there's tax implications as well, like, you know, these things are taxed differently, depending on which country you're in. And, and so all of that, that plays into it. So those are kind of some of those, the pros and cons of each position.

11:49 Kathryn

Yeah, awesome. Um, and in terms of like, training, because I know, this is a big hot topic, and a lot of the groups that I'm in, as well as clients that come to me, they'll, you know, they're frustrated, because they hire a contractor or a freelancer. And they, there's not like maybe the best training put in place for them, and they don't actually think they need to train them. Can we talk a little bit about that, and the belief around that. And because I believe that we still have to train the people that come into our business. So I think there's a disconnect out there with when you hire an expert, so to speak, or a freelancer or contractor that has this expertise that you don't necessarily have, that there's an expectation that they can just like, slip into your business and just like start running it. Yeah.

12:36 Emily

Right, right. And you're right, that is really a kind of a myth out there. Right? That, that they can do that. And, and that comes down to expectations, I really think about it like a feedback loop. When you bring in your new contractor or freelancer, where you give the assignments right, and you start small, I think of a staircase as well, you're not starting them on the fifth floor of your business like they are starting at ground level. And so we have to step them in. And this is where it helps with letting go of control as well is that when you give them just like one step at a time, you're taking just a few steps with them, you're getting the wins, right? So you're getting you're building that trust, you're establishing the relationship, they're learning what you want, and what you don't want. Because even though they're bringing in expertise, they still don't know you, they don't know your business. They're totally cold on that. And so that's why I mentioned this feedback loop, I think about it like a circle where you give an assignment or a project. And then you know, they do the deliverable, you build in time to give them feedback. And then you have to let them implement the feedback. And sometimes people are like, Yeah, but it's faster and costs a little less if I do it myself.

14:25 Kathryn

The question is, the myth around hiring people, right. So I know, I hear a lot that people will say, you know, I hired this freelancer and for their expertise, yeah. And then they just didn't do the work.

14:32 Emily

Yeah, I wanted to talk about the feedback loop. Yeah. And like how that works. Okay, so I'm gonna actually start at the top of the feedback loop. So as I mentioned, that feedback loop is so you give an assignment, you let the Freelancer do their thing. And then and then you give them feedback and you let them implement the feedback and then you do a double check. So this is not forever, but in those first few weeks and first few months, if you don't tell them anything they're not going to know. And, and so giving feedback builds their confidence, it also helps, just helps them give you what you want. They cannot read your mind, even if they're an expert in social media, or they're really good at administrative details. If they have no idea what you want, they cannot deliver on that, right? That is setting them up for failure, not for success. So that's why I think about this, like in terms of the stairs, and I also think about it as this loop. And that's really the key, right? Because a lot of times what we fall into is like, we will like to see the work, and then we fix it without giving feedback. And I've done this just happened to me last summer, and I couldn't figure out why my assistant was like, not killing it with some social media scheduling. And I realized I'd been fixing it for her for months. And I was like, Oh, I never told her. First it didn't get better. And so as soon as we talked about it, then it's been great ever since. So, yeah, we, it's so easy to fall into even just temporarily, we can forget.

16:00 Kathryn

Yeah, and I know, for myself, I've done the same thing, right? Where I've had, you know, my VA doing something, and then it's like, it's just easier, I think, in the moment to just fix it. But in the long run, it actually isn't because then they're just never do the things that you want them to do in the way that you want them to do it. So how long would you let like when that we think of that feedback loop? Like, what if you like, is it you know, a month that you're doing it? And then if they're still not getting it? Like how do you know what it's like, this just isn't a good fit? Or?

16:34 Emily

Yeah, I think there are a bunch of signs. Um, yeah, I think that that's part of it, I'd give it a month, roughly, if you're not seeing improvement in that month, then that's probably an indicator. I also look at reliability and deadlines. You know, I manage all of my tasks in Asana, there are lots of project management tools out there, but that's the one I use. And, you know, if they're not hitting their deadlines, and I give like cushy, I give space, right? I understand I'm not their only client. And so I give a few days, and if things just aren't getting done or not like there's not good communication. And at this point, like at this point in hiring, that's not really happening to me anymore. But that's some of the stuff I'm still still seeing with people when they have to let go.

17:23

Yeah, I want to dive into that space piece. Because I know that I've been hired, like I do copywriting on contract. And I've been hired as a copywriter. Knowing that there's that I've been on both sides of the fence. Basically, I've been either hiring people to work in my team, or I've been hired out to work on someone else's team. And so I can see it from both sides now. And that space piece is huge, right is like understanding that the people that you're hiring, you're not their only client. Otherwise, they would be a full time employee in your business. Right? So in terms of giving people enough time and having that expectation for your people to go again, set them up for success, right? Because I do think sometimes, and I've done it, and this is why I'm saying it and I've seen other people do it is like you get to that point of burnout, you're desperate to get help you go in and try to find help. And then it's like, but I needed your help yesterday. So now I'm going to put these deadlines completely unrealistic. How do you manage, like, I guess, expectations, but also deadlines in a, in a really good way for both people?

18:28 Emily

Yeah, for me, it's really come down to communication. So my freelancers and I, we, we have conversations about it, what do they need, we also will talk about different types of tasks. So I have an editor who there are different timelines, depending like a blog post gets way more time than, you know, five social media captions. Yeah, or like the second review, I usually do a second pass with her. And that looks like a much shorter window, because we've already done most of the upfront work. And so it really depends on the project and the person and, and almost like a negotiation, or, you know, communication about expectations, and what do they usually need, what do I need, and then we figure that out. And, and then it's testing, you know, test and test and adjust. It also might be like, Oh, we tried that, and it's not working, or I've had, you know, I've had my contractors come back to me and say, Hey, this just isn't working. I've taken on a few more clients, and I need a little more time on the blog post or I need a little more lead on this or that and it's like, so good, right? I just Yeah, build it in and work toward it. And really, their boundaries is important. 

19:40 Kathryn

Yeah, I think that's key because I think sometimes I loved how you gave the just like distinguish between the employee and the Freelancers where it was like an employee you can basically say like when they have to work, like giving them time and all that whereas like the Freelancer contractor, it's more of like a two way Negotiation Communication because They do have other projects. And there has to be some, we just don't know what their schedule was. I think that's the piece that I've had. I've always hired teams that are like full time employees or part time employees that I set their schedule for them. Whereas in the online space hiring the contractors and freelancers for me was always sort of a struggle to try and find that balance of okay, but I need this done by this time. But they have their plate full of stuff, right. But it's like, that whole mentality of like, what I'm paying you to do the work. So I want it done on the hill. I want it done when I need my deadlines done. But coming from it from a different now being on the flip side, and also being contracted out. I've now seen both sides of the fence and see how it's like, well, yeah, there's multiple projects we're trying to juggle here. So how do we Yeah, make it work for both? Both parties. 

20:54 Emily

And I think one of the things that I do, maybe differently is, I do look for freelancers that have a bit more experience freelancing. So I usually look for people that have been in it for two or three years. I also look for people that that's what they want to do, right? They are not freelancing on the side, they are freelancing, like, this is what they love, they love writing, or they love social media management. And that's what they want to do that I really look for people that are in their zone of genius, because I found that the best way to build a strong team is to have people complimenting, complimenting each other, instead of everyone being like me, or everyone being very similar.

21:35 Kathryn

Yeah, such a good point too, because I think, really getting people that are very expert in what they do. Versus like, I always say like that broad hiring somebody that's like, I can do everything right, you know, and that they are committed to doing this work, like this is what they've they've done, how do you find these people?

21:58 Emily

So I usually use freelancing platforms. That's my favorite way. But I've also found people on Facebook groups, I found people on Instagram, you know, for clients. The real thing that I found was like, where do you find them? It's all about the job posting, like you can be successful in any of those spaces, because there are people there. But if your job posting is not incredible, if it is not super attractive, it doesn't matter. Or if you don't even have a job posting, like if you have a sentence or two. And you know, send me a DM like you're not getting the best freelancers because people with experience are not going to be you're not going to be in high demand for them. And freelancers are picky, they're really, they're really picky about what they are going to put their energy into. They know there's only one position, they know they're going up against other people. And so the job posting has to be really spectacular to get people to apply.

22:57 Kathryn

Yeah, let's talk about that job posting. What are some tips for people? Do you feel like that's one of the biggest mistakes when people are going out to hire is the job posting isn't clear enough or specific enough? Or stellar enough to get like a game players? And then how do we

23:15 Emily

Absolutely I have so much passion around this Kathryn. Like, I can't even tell you like yes, let's talk about this. Yeah. Um, yeah, it is the biggest mistake because it is a domino effect. If you don't have a great if your job hosting is kind of crappy, or it's not doesn't really have details, it's not super clear. The language is really complicated, it's hard to understand what you want, then you're not going to have an applicant pool, that's going to be tacular. I think if your job posting is really, really super attractive, you've got some space to make some mistakes later in the hiring process. Right? The questions you ask in the interview don't matter as much, you know, cuz you'll, you're having a conversation, you know, some of those details. Like, it's like you're setting yourself up for success. And partly just because you're getting more applicants, right, my job postings usually get like 30 to 60 people to apply. And like I think about my early times, hiring I had like five people respond to a posting in a Facebook group. And now it's like, I had 68 applications for a project manager position. Um, a while ago, so unbelievable, right, like to have 68 options for one part time freelance position. Yeah. Yeah, it works. So yeah, I think some of the keys to the job posting though, like we were talking about specific is super important. You have to be detailed, especially in the responsibilities, the things you want them to do. You also really it needs to be aligned. So you have to make sure that the responsibilities connect to the role. So you're not having a social media manager, write your blog posts. You're not having your blog writer, schedule, your social media, like these are things like I see all the time I see this stuff all the time. There are so many bad job postings out there. And that's why the Freelancers have become so picky. And then I think the third one is really simplifying the language. One of the things a lot of you know people will do is they look to other companies, and what are they putting in their job postings, and they usually look to Amazon, they look to, I don't know, like, magazines and newspapers. And you know, and so they look to these big companies where, like, they don't realize that the big company can do anything they want. Amazon can literally put whatever they want in their job postings and 1000 people will apply for graphic design job, right, yeah. Because everyone knows who Amazon is, they are attractive. So and so then what Amazon does, and I'm not I don't mean to pick on them, like, specifically, but any big company, right? Um, they tend to complicate their language. They think it's attractive to have like, big fancy words in it. And it's not for us. Yeah. Small business.

26:04 Kathryn

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, again, I've seen lots of, yeah, really good. I feel like good job postings out there. But also some, like really, sort of sketchy ones that are kind of like a catch. All right, is like, I want you to do all of these things. And it's like, how do you find if the whole goal is for all of us to be operating in our zone of genius, so to speak, right? So if our, if we're not operating in our Zona genius, as a as a leader, but also we want our freelancers to be in their zone of genius, too, because that's when everybody's operating the best that they can, you know, and they're, and they're doing doing the best that they can. Do you have do you have any resources for people if they want to learn how to?

28:58 Emily

Yeah. So I have a couple resources. One is a job posting template that will walk you through this, like making one of these. And then I also have a fuller hiring course that does sort of the same thing, where it's the whole hiring process, and that's called the hiring fix. And then also, I do job posting reviews as well. It's not something I usually talk about, but I love doing things like reviewing job postings and giving feedback and helping people really, really nail them because I believe it's like that is what's going to set them up for success. And it's what I can do to help them.

29:41 Kathryn

Yeah, brilliant. We will definitely link those up. I just know that creating the job posting as you said, you know, is really sort of like the gateway to getting really key people applying and that there are good people out there and if you've there could be a couple of reasons why if you're hiring people or attracting people that might not be get fed or just don't turn out or not reliable or whatever it might be I mean it really does start with that job posting right. Yeah, I'm finding all of this information really, really helpful for our listeners, I know they're gonna love it because hiring a team is so important in order to grow your business, but also to like really help you operate, like you said in that zone of genius. And that's really what we're striving for. So is there anything else that you'd love to share with our listeners that we might not have covered here today?

30:23 Emily

Yeah, I think it's just to remember that you really do deserve support. I know so many, so many entrepreneurs, especially creative entrepreneurs, they feel bad outsourcing these things they don't want to do and the stuff they're not good at. But I think it's important to remember that other people have zone of genius, where you don't and so it's just starting small and taking consistent action on this and the overtime you will have, it will be so worth it. You will have a team that supports you and helps you grow your business. Yeah, totally yourself.

30:58 Kathryn

And just not leaving it too long. Right. You know, I know that's what I did. The first time is left it too long. And then I was in a panic to get somebody in and just really, if you want to set everybody else up for success, it's giving yourself the time to one, train them and onboard them into your business. But also, you know, give them the space to do the work. So yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, yeah, it's been such a pleasure. I know. Like I said, our listeners are going to absolutely love this because hiring a team is so important. Where can people find you if they want to connect with you? Yeah, so

31:29 Emily

I'm online at Emily parent.com. And then I'm also on Instagram at Emily dot parent. I honestly love to hear from podcast listeners. So don't hesitate to reach out with questions or comments from this episode. I love to hear what you took away from it.

31:45 Kathryn

Awesome, awesome. And we will definitely link all of that stuff up in the show notes along with the resources that we chatted about for job posting, so that they have access to that again, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you, and I cannot wait for this episode to air. Yay. Thanks

Now on Episode #38 – If finding focus and getting shit done is tough for you, you’re going to want to tune into next week’s episode. I have David Wood on to talk about how to combat shiny object syndrome by focusing on less. He’s one of the most interesting guests I’ve had to date. He shares so candidly with real-life stories which make you think you’ve known him for years.

So if finding focus and getting shit done is something you need help with, be sure to tune into that episode.

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